Below is a link to a good video of Ulleungdo. Also, at 9 minutes and 22 seconds (9:22) into the video, you can see a view of "Dokdo" (Liancourt Rocks) far off in the distance from Ulleungdo. However, what is interesting about this view of "Dokdo" is that "Dokdo" disappears from view as the camera pulls back from its magnified view to a normal one. Another interesting thing is that Dokdo appears right above the point of a peak, which may be a landmark to help tourists with binoculars and telephoto lenses find the island.
I think this video is evidence of just how difficult it is to see "Dokdo" (Liancourt Rocks) from Ulleungdo. I doubt that fishermen and farmers travelling to Ulleungdo during Korea's Joseon period had binoculars or an observation point on top of a mountain with a sign and arrow pointing you in the direction of "Dokdo." This video is also evidence that most, if not all, of the photos on the Web taken of "Dokdo" from Ulleungdo are magnified.
The people who post these magnified photos on the Web are often trying to deceive people into believing that "Dokdo" is closer to Ulleungdo than it really is, which is an attempt to convince people that "Dokdo" was considered a neighboring island of Ulleungdo during Korea's Joseon period. (Steve Barber's Web site is a good example of this kind of deception. See HERE.) However, it is obvious from the video below that "Dokdo" (Liancourt Rocks) would not have been considered a neighboring island of Ulleungdo by any reasonable standard, which is almost certainly why Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) never appeared on any of Korea's old maps.
Link to Video
Gerry, as always you are wrong.
ReplyDeleteDokdo is visible from Ulleungdo. This is recorded in the 1903 edition of the Black Dragon Fishing Manual. It quotes "...About 30-ri south-east of Ulleungdo, and almost the same distance north-west from Japan’s Oki county, there is an uninhabited island. One can see it from the highest point of 山峯 (mountain) in Ulleungdo when the weather is fine. Korean and Japanese fishermen call it “Yanko” (Liancourt Rocks - Dokdo)..."
Dokdo is Visible from Ulleungdo
Remember, pollution was non-existent and the air would have been much clearer on many more days back then. In fact, around 1900 it was recorded that Ulleungdo was visible from the Korean mainland, something you rarely hear of these days.
Ullengdo from Korea
Historical records make your silly argument moot, Gerry...
Steve,
ReplyDeleteIn 1882, Lee Gyu-won went up to the top of the highest mountain on Ulleungdo on a clear day and reported that he could not find even a speck of an island. That is a historical record, and pollution cannot be blamed in 1882?
Jang Han-sang's 1694 survey report is really the only Korean record that talks about seeing an island, which was probably Liancourt Rocks, from Ulleungdo, and that record said the island looked to be one-third the size of Ulleungdo, even though Ulleungdo is actually about 390 times bigger than Liancourt Rocks.
I do not know if Koreans had spyglasses back then, but this video I linked to shows pretty well how effective magnification can be, and how deceptive your Web site is.
Under the right atomospheric conditions, Liancourt Rocks can be seen from Ulleungdo with binoculars, telephoto lens, and maybe even the naked eye, but those conditions rarely occur. I have read that the best chance of seeing Liancourt Rocks from Ulleungdo is in the autumn.
Watch the video and you will see just how far away Liancourt Rocks are from Ulleungdo.
Gerry, my website uses historical references, and real images proving Dokdo is and was visible from Ulleungdo.
ReplyDeleteLeegyuwon didn't see Dokdo and that is not at all surprising but what about the Koreans who actually lived on Ulleungdo? Ancient Koreans lived on Ulleungdo day in and out for at least 800 years before the vacant island policy. Do you think they weren't cognizant of Dokdo after eight centuries of residing on Ulleungdo? That's a pretty silly assertion.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteYes, your site uses real, "magnified" images.
Few Koreans lived on Ulleungdo because of Korea's "empty island" policy, and the ones who did live there were probably too busy just trying to survive to have time to climb up those steep mountains and wait for the right atmospheric conditions to see an island they did not even know existed. That means they would not even know where to look.
The chances of seeing Ulleungdo from mainland Korea was much more likely than seeing Liancourt Rocks from Ulleungdo. Ulleungdo is 390 times bigger than Liancourt Rocks, and Korea maintained year-around lookout posts on the tops of the mountains along the Korean coast, which means the lookouts would have had all year to wait for the right conditions to see Ulleungdo. Korea has records saying they could see Ulleungdo from the mainland, but the 1694 record is the only one that seems to say that Liancourt Rocks was seen from Ulleungdo.
Even in 1882, Lee Gyu-won's report is evidence that Korea did not know where Liancourt Rocks were, and even if she did know, she did not consider it to be a part of Ulleungdo.
If Koreans on Ulleungdo were cognizant of Liancourt Rocks, then where are the Korean records to prove it? Even if the Koreans on Ulleungdo knew of Liancourt Rocks, it means nothing if the Korean government did not know about them, and there is no evidence that the government did. You appeal to people's common sense, but common sense and no records or maps tell me that Korea most likely did not know about Liancourt Rocks, and even she did, she did not consider them part of Korean territory.
I heard a story from my freind failed to watch Linacourt Rocks from Ulungdo,that a bus driver on Ullungdo told her it is quite difficult to watch Liancourt Rocks from Ullungdo,just only 20-30 days in a year(365days).
ReplyDeleteIf his comment is real,so the estimated possilibity on the condition like the video you posted would be just 5.4%(20days a year)~8.2%(30days a year),it means,1~3 days in a month.Quite low possibility...
Gerry, the fact the inspector saw Dokdo from Ulleungdo proves how easily the island could be seen. First Chosun inspected Ulleungdo about every three years so what are the chances of seeing Dokdo given these infrequent surveys. Even then they still saw Dokdo. Remember, few of these inspectors ever ventured into the interior of Ulleungdo.
ReplyDeleteOnly Gerry Bevers would post a video of Dokdo from Ulleungdo and make the bizarre statement. "See you can't see Dokdo from Ulleungdo!!"
GMTOR 25 times a year viewing opportunities times around 800 years is 20,000 chances.
Gerry, back to the subject. You asked if Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo and the 1903 Black Dragon Fishing Guide says yes. This was of course with the naked eye. So you as usual you are just blowing hot air.
Multi id user of
ReplyDeleteToadface,Steve,dokdo-takeshima.com wrote;25 times a year viewing opportunities times around 800 years is 20,000 chances
There was no permanent residence on Ulleungdo but only short term illegal stayer or inspector each three year,so the chance would be no many.
Even though there was some chance during 800 years for 20.000 chances,there was ONLY ONE discription by 張漢相 witnessed Liancourt Rocks(Takehsima/Dokdo)by chance. No other record by other inspectors and so on.
Everyone know that Japan has correct records and Maps of Liancourt Rocks(Takeshima/Dokdo) consist from two main pinancles with many small rocks from 16century.
Does Korean side has correct map like Japan's map of Liancourt Rocks,consist from two main pinnacles with many small rocks?
Last years Korean scolor admitted Usando be Jukdo,though long year Korean distorted tha t Usando be Liancourt Rocks.
Ofcourse Korean scolor know there is no map about Liancourt Rocks but they have only Ullungdo and Jukdo maps.
dont delete my precious innocent comment just because it contained a single f word. it was used at the right spot for expression purpose and not for criticizm. is webmaster a fastidious catholic or what?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteIf it is the comment I am thinking about, then it was deleted because it was an irrelevant rant, not because of the "F" word. Here we discuss issues related to the Dokdo-Takeshima debate, and generalizations about a race of people are not relevant to that discussion.
GMTOR, you are wrong. Koreans resided on Ulleungdo all through the vacant island policy. The inspectors very seldom if ever inspected Ulleungdo's interior and never chased those who fled to apprehend them. Read this short passage from this old Western publication.
ReplyDeleteIt says here a good deal of Koreans lived on Ulleungdo in 1880 in Oppert's book about Korea.
Oppert1
Oppert2
This book was written in 1880 before Lee Gyuwon surveyed Ulleungdo and the "vacant island" island policy was ended.
Yes GMTOR, Japanese have maps of Dokdo. However all national maps of Japan fail to include the islands of Japan.
See this page.
Japanese Map Book
Why does everyone concern about visibility of Liancourt rocks from Ulleungdo?
ReplyDeleteI know that there was a debate between Japan and Korea concerning the interpretation of the following text from 『高麗史』巻五十八 地理三 欝陵島; "一云 于山 武陵 本二島 相距不遠 風日清明則可望見".
It means "There is a view that Usan and Muleung are two islands and the distance between them is not far and visible on windy and fine day".
Korea insisted that Usan was Liancourt rocks (Dokdo) and that it could be visible from Ulleungdo on windy and fine day (and that this old document proves that Koreans knew Liancourt rocks long before Japan knew it), while Japan thought that the group of the two islands (or one island with two names?) were visible from Korean mainland on windy and fine day (and that the document didn't refer to Liancourt rocks).
But now that Usando was proved not to be Liancourt rocks, I think it is useless to debate about visibility. Even if one can see Liancourt rocks from Ulleungdo, one can't say about the ownership of Liancourt rocks.
As Gerry pointed out, there was only one occasion in record that a Korean saw Liancourt rocks from Ulleungdo but he only saw the rocks and didn't have precise information about them. He may have thought the rocks were beyond Korean territory.
Pacifist,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. It has nothing to do with sovereignty over the island at all.
But we need to expose the reality how pro-Korean Dokdo lobbyist distort the fact and make it half-truth as long as they keep deceiving people. sigh...
I don't get it. In Steve's website there is a photo where Dokdo is plainly visible without any "deceptive" magnification that Gerry mentions (this one, where you can also see the guy's head).
ReplyDelete