tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post9002781594163858073..comments2024-01-26T17:48:29.804+09:00Comments on Dokdo-or-Takeshima?: 1827 May 19 - Ha Si-myeong (河始明) Inspects UlleungdoGerry Bevershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-44995118203222033962009-09-13T23:00:19.026+09:002009-09-13T23:00:19.026+09:00GTOMR,
Thanks for the image of Folding Screen Roc...GTOMR,<br /><br />Thanks for the image of Folding Screen Rock. It does look like folding screen. And yes, they could have calculated 1 ri as 200m or simply copied others' description.<br /><br />BTW, I've noticed that there are some places named after 観音 on Ulleungdo in the photos you have linked previously. Who brought Buddhism to Ulleungdo? Japanese?Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-28016269510202567102009-09-13T17:32:19.606+09:002009-09-13T17:32:19.606+09:00Kaneganese;
黄土邱尾~中峯. I've noticed about descri...Kaneganese;<br />黄土邱尾~中峯. I've noticed about description of 30-ri in 1831 report, too. But 30-ri( = 12km) for 黃土邱尾~中峯 is too long, since the distance from 台霞港 to 聖人峰 is about 6.5km. So I think the sence of distance of Choson officials are not always accurate,<br /><br />I think they would calculate 1ri for 200m. I dont know why, although we know 1 ri arout 400m. This is the calculation list here;<br />https://sites.google.com/site/takeshimaliancourt/Home/1ri-0-4km-or-0-2km-by-inspectorGTOMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881539471132140299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-74067303691760981082009-09-13T17:29:27.938+09:002009-09-13T17:29:27.938+09:00屛風巖
Tourist Sign board at Mullueng valley, they sa...屛風巖<br />Tourist Sign board at Mullueng valley, they said Screen rock like this ;http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26769069<br />I think it is the cliff nearby Taeha today.<br /><br /><br />長沙仇味<br />It maybe around 長輿洞 and 沙洞 today?<br /><br />都蔵仇味 and (萍卓邱尾("High Duckweed Cove")<br />Any hint what named after?<br /><br />http://maps.google.co.jp/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=ja&msa=0&msid=110845156839716248106.00047370f0388a6b7548b&ll=37.51136,130.869827&spn=0.196625,0.299377&z=11GTOMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881539471132140299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-79221691503225795842007-11-19T18:16:00.000+09:002007-11-19T18:16:00.000+09:00Gerry,Yabutarou thinks 小竹入島 should be read as you ...Gerry,<BR/><BR/>Yabutarou thinks 小竹入島 should be read as you said. <BR/><BR/>BTW, your opinion of the place on Ulleungdo's Jukdo called Jangsa-gumi (長沙仇味) in the map of Ulleungdo in the Samcheok Museum sounds very interesting. When I saw the picture of the ladder on Jukdo in your post, <A HREF="http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com/2007/09/nice-picture-of-ulleungdos-jukdo-usando.html" REL="nofollow">"Nice picture of Ulleungdo's Jukdo (Usando)" </A> the 12th photo shows there are some people who are not on the ladder but on the shore at the bottom of Jukdo. I can't clearly see, but I think it is possible that there is a shore on which at least few people can stand. But, 長沙 itself means long beach, so I first thought it is today's 沙洞 since 1902 Japanese MOFA report says it is not a rocky and they can anchor the ship. (But you can't see Jukdo from there.) Where do you think 長沙仇味 is?<BR/><BR/>And as for 5里, I think mathematically, you are right. Actually, it was the reason I translated the way it can mean in both way, but as Yabutarou says, gramatically, it should be the distance of 黃土邱尾~中峯. I've noticed about description of 30-ri in 1831 report, too. But 30-ri( = 12km) for 黃土邱尾~中峯 is too long, since the distance from 台霞港 to 聖人峰 is about 6.5km. So I think the sence of distance of Choson officials are not always accurate, especially those who didn't climb up to Central Peak as Lee did in 1882. Anyway, I think we should write both or at least suggest it can mean in both way.Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-48561457505840707602007-11-19T16:27:00.000+09:002007-11-19T16:27:00.000+09:00It is bit off the topic that 1827 and 1831 Inspect...It is bit off the topic that 1827 and 1831 Inspection report seems to be succeed on the style of the report on 1694 by 張漢相、his report seems to be literature model after the following reports and maps like 1827 or 1831 and so on... <BR/><BR/>北至二十余里南近四十余X里面?互往来西望遠近臆?度如斯是齋西望大谷中有一人居基地三X又有人居基地二X東南長谷亦有人居基地七X石葬十九X<BR/>船舶X即東南間口僅谷四十五X之X而東南X即亦可蔵X是遣此X有三釜三X而二釜一X即破傷X様非我国之制也県即無足無蓋可炊二斗米釜即廣経尺許深可二尺容威四五桶西方大谷渓潤成川沿邊開豁比処最而呼泊処船隻可避東南風而西風難避無非在前泊船之X又有一泉可炊米斗亦是彼物北遣岸上有るXX亦非我国X造島中岩X蜜重畳而山腰以上即是石X以下即土山而山勢険洞堅深X樹木連抱参天而X日者不知其Ⅹ許積年空X之地人跡不到故藤葛盤結朽草木添草排XX絶卒非人X可通遥少X潤谷不可窮XX謂樹木蓋是冬X紫檀側X黄壁金木X木塊木X木XX楓桂樹X之類而其中冬紫檀最多松木直木捺木檬等木●終無一株而羽則鳥鴎毛則猫睨而巳此外別無飛走之●●無人居又無木賽<BR/>"""可食而水族即只有鮫魚而獲沿邊碓処戒十戒百成●穴居大如駒特小如犬承間有生腹付諸尾石責者躯小味薄四方裏邊破船板木●●漂着者処処有之而或鉄釘或木釘或腐傷者而審其稍木之制"""<BR/>即彼我無別巳為裂破而東南崖尾漂散最多竹田東南麓三処最多時毎処可落●年三十余石且両田●竹●多其傍Ⅹ置数千竿而或有陳枯者或有末乾者自東南間従谷中向竹田十五里許有小路処此必取竹者往来遥大抵環一島皆名山四面壁立又●●処即而峡成間流水X渓而巳只一西方山麓開成洞門大川流出而砂礫堆積不能成浦船泊甚難中有峯密嵯峨洞堅面互難無寛豁処尚可開墾到於残山峡処成有人居基地石葬自墓木連抱大槃島在三千里海洋之中船隻不得任意往来則有彼国横占之拳除防無策欲設堡鉄則則人民無止接之策●所謂開墾処樹木陰鬱藤葛成薮.....GTOMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881539471132140299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-64343317158944543722007-11-19T12:46:00.000+09:002007-11-19T12:46:00.000+09:00五里については、うーんどうでしょう。。文法的にはわたしので間違ってないと思いますが。。。五里については、うーんどうでしょう。。文法的にはわたしので間違ってないと思いますが。。。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-62630591865366546822007-11-19T12:31:00.000+09:002007-11-19T12:31:00.000+09:00小竹入島は完全な私の間違いです。中途半端なところで文をコピーしてしてしまったようです。。小竹入島は完全な私の間違いです。中途半端なところで文をコピーしてしてしまったようです。。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-74592682401582680422007-11-19T12:30:00.000+09:002007-11-19T12:30:00.000+09:00Hi Kaneganese,The 1907 report said that it was 30 ...Hi Kaneganese,<BR/><BR/>The 1907 report said that it was 30 <I>ri</I> from Hwangto Cove to the central peak, so 5 <I>ri</I> would not be even halfway.<BR/><BR/>As I said before, the map of Ulleungdo in the Samcheok Museum seemed to suggest that there was a place on Ulleungdo's Jukdo called Jangsa-gumi (長沙仇味), which means Jangsa Cove. If you look at the map <A HREF="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2136/2037043407_03b11b9f63_o.jpg" REL="nofollow">HERE</A>, you will notice that the small of the east shore (probably Jukdo) has a little cove-like shape to it, which you would see more clearly if the map were map were clearer. Maybe, that was Jangsa-gumi, even though other maps show Jangsa-gumi on the shore of Ulleungdo, and they just looked at the short bamboo on the island from a distance? Anyway, I am just guessing out loud here, but, in my opinion, 小竹入島 sounds awkward.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-58012807306387923042007-11-19T11:44:00.000+09:002007-11-19T11:44:00.000+09:00Yabutarouさん"自黃土邱尾至中峯爲五里而中有可墾田..."について、この五里は黃土邱尾から中...Yabutarouさん<BR/><BR/>"自黃土邱尾至中峯爲五里而中有可墾田..."<BR/>について、この五里は黃土邱尾から中峯までの距離にしては短いのでは、とGerryから質問がありました(実際は台霞港から聖人峰まで約6.5km。5里=2kmのところに台地があって、そこに人家があるとしたら確かに当てはまります。)。いかが思われますか?まあ、他の報告書でも30里になっていたり、必ずしも検察官の距離感覚は当てにはなりませんけれど。漢文の文法上、可墾田が5里の所に在る、と訳すことは出来ないのでしょうか?<BR/><BR/>また、<BR/>"竹田在於壁上俱是小竹入島三日詳察島內則周回殆近"<BR/>について、小竹と入島はそれぞれまえと後ろにつく別のセンテンスではないか、との質問があり、(私も最初そう解釈したのですが)如何でしょうか? 23日に島に到着して27日に半島へ帰港しているので、23-25の3日間島を探索して26-27日かけて航海した、と考えると計算はあうのですが。文法上そう訳すことはおかしいでしょうか?小竹入島と訳すかどうかで、竹嶼の事を書いているのかどうか問題になるのでこちらは特に重要かと思われます。ご意見お聞かせ下さい。<BR/><BR/>Gerry,<BR/><BR/>I asked Yabutarou about your question. We'll see his opinion. I didn't think carefully when I posted it since I was really tired last night. Sorry about that.<BR/><BR/>But yes, it makes more sense since it is almost 6.5km from 台霞港 to 聖人峰 and there is a tableland 2km from 台霞港 in 1918 map. And as for 小竹入島, at first I translated in a same way with you since they reached to Ulleundo om 23th and went back to mainland on 27th already. So 3 days inspection makes perfect sence. But I think it is posible for both way. Anyway, it is a very important sentence for this issue if it means "小竹入島" since it sounds like a Jukdo, so we should discuss more before we decide.<BR/><BR/>The yesterday's news reported that "Here comes the Winter Shogun!". It's really cold here in Tokyo, too. (Though I still spend without heater.)Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-35057102417368194772007-11-19T09:26:00.000+09:002007-11-19T09:26:00.000+09:00Kaneganese,It is more than 5 ri from Hwangto Cove ...Kaneganese,<BR/><BR/>It is more than 5 ri from Hwangto Cove to the central peak, so I think that sentence was saying "...five <I>ri</I> from Hwangto Cove on the way to the central peak..."?<BR/><BR/>Also, isn't 小竹 part of the previous sentence, and 入島 the start of a new one? Isn't the second sentence saying that they went into the island (入島) and expored its interior for three days?<BR/><BR/>I am at school, so I will not be able to edit the 1807 report until this evening.<BR/><BR/>Wow! It is cold here in Korea this morning. Take care.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-22057895628825063642007-11-19T00:07:00.000+09:002007-11-19T00:07:00.000+09:00Great, yabutarou01 and Kaneganese!Great, yabutarou01 and Kaneganese!pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-6339377740490915872007-11-18T22:19:00.000+09:002007-11-18T22:19:00.000+09:00Gerry,Please correct those bold faced sentences wh...Gerry,<BR/><BR/>Please correct those bold faced sentences which Yabutarou told me and my English too, thank you. <BR/><BR/><B>This is a report of the Ulleundo inspection which was conducted very 3 year ( 2 years between inspections) by the rule. This year, </B>Samcheok Commander Ha Si-myeong (河始明) reported that on April 16th, he <B>led Japanese interpretor Choi Gap-mun (崔甲文) and eighty people, including contracted sailors</B>, boarded four ships, and reached Ulleungdo on April 23th. Surveying the geography of the island, they saw Hwangto Cave (黄土窟 - "Golden Clay Cave") on the left and and Byeongpung Rock (屛風巖 - "Folding Screen Rock") on the right. <BR/><BR/><B>The distance from Hwangto-gumi (黄土龜尾 - "Golden Clay Cove") toward the central peak is five ri, and on halfway, </B>there was an area where fields and paddies could be cultivated. There were also old foundations of dwellings. From there they advanced to the the cove entrance, where there was a cliff with juniper trees on top that <B>which we sealed and presented to the king</B>, so they harvested them. Afterwards, they went to Pyeongtak-gumi (萍卓邱尾 -"High Duckweed Cove"), where there was a grove of large bamboo. The bamboo had been thinned out, but they harvested the <B>larger ones</B> among them. Then they headed east to Jangsa-gumi (長沙邱尾), where they saw a bamboo grove on top of the cliff <B> in a distance, and it is a "小竹入島"</B>. <BR/><BR/><B>They thoroughly inspected the island and its interior for three days</B>. The circumference of the island is about eighty or ninety ri, and it is all rock mountains. The trees on the island include mulberry, pinenut, paulownia, elm, juniper, and hazelnut. The birds on the island include crow, sparrow, sea gull, and quail. The creeping animals are cats and rats. The sea roducts include brown seaweed, abalone, and various fish.<BR/><BR/>Yabutarouさん、ありがとうございました。Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-80444913774647187382007-11-18T21:32:00.000+09:002007-11-18T21:32:00.000+09:00江原監司 鄭元容が鬱陵島搜討の報告をするためにやって来た。きまりに従って二年の間を置いて実行された鬱...江原監司 鄭元容が鬱陵島搜討の報告をするためにやって来た。<BR/><BR/>きまりに従って二年の間を置いて実行された鬱陵島搜討の状況を報告いたします。今年搜討しました三陟營將 河始明が提出した文書によりますと、四月十六日に日本語通詞の崔甲文及び仕事を請け負った水夫ら八十人を四艘の船に分けて乗せ出航しました。二十三日に本島に停泊して七日に本島に到着し宿泊しました。島の様子を調査したところ、左に黄土窟右に屏風岩があり黄土邱尾より中峯までは距離にして五里その途中に田や畑として耕作可能な土地や昔の人が住んでいた住居の跡がありました。前進して浦の入り口にたどり着くと岸壁に献上しました可封の香木が有りましたので削りとった後萍卓邱尾にたどり着きました。そこには大規模な竹林がありましたが竹はまばらでその中で少し大きいものを切り取りました。そして東の長沙邱尾にたどり着くと竹林が岸壁にあるのを望見しましたがこれが小竹入島です。<BR/><BR/>この後の文は問題なさそうです。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-50606470675127420892007-11-18T20:33:00.000+09:002007-11-18T20:33:00.000+09:00Thanks, Kaneganese. If you see any mistakes in my ...Thanks, Kaneganese. If you see any mistakes in my edits, please let me know.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-26283693702726317412007-11-18T15:50:00.000+09:002007-11-18T15:50:00.000+09:00家に帰るまであと四時間掛かります。しばらくお待ちください。家に帰るまであと四時間掛かります。しばらくお待ちください。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-43315374533102344452007-11-18T14:08:00.000+09:002007-11-18T14:08:00.000+09:00Gerry,This is my translation of this text ( I used...Gerry,<BR/><BR/>This is my translation of this text ( I used your English as a base, so it looks much better, I hope. ). I think accuracy is 80% or so. So please wait until I get proof reading. But I guess you can grasp the point basically. BTW, I couldn't understand "牒呈內". Do you have any idea?<BR/><BR/>1827 May 19 - Record of Ulleungdo Inspection <BR/><BR/>There was an written order for biannual inspection, then this is the year of the inspection. On April 16th, Samcheok Commander Han ? (河始明) with Che ?(崔甲文), translator for Japanese lead official sailors (沙格) and 80 others of them on 4 ships. <BR/><BR/>On April 23th, we reached to Ulleungdo. Surveying the geography of the island, they saw Hwangto Cave (黄土窟 - "Golden Clay Cave") on the left and and Byeongpung Rock (屛風巖 - "Folding Screen Rock") on the right. From Hwangto-gumi (黄土龜尾 - "Golden Clay Cove") to the middle peak, it is 5-ri and there were places possible for cultivation or the ruins of hoses. Forwarding from there, we reached to the opening of the cove (浦口). On top of the cliff, there were juniper trees which can be a present to be sealed in, thus they cut (斫取:sharpened off?) them. Later, we reached to 萍卓邱尾, and there were huge bamboo field. It wasn't easy to cut off the trunck of bamboo( ← I'm not sure what "竹本稀疏取" means. ), then we cut of only with huge trunks among them. Then we head to the east to 長沙邱尾, and we saw bamboo field on the cliff, but those are short bamboos. For three days since we entered in the island, we inspected the inside of the island in detail. The circumference of the island is almost 80 or 90-ri and this is a rocky island. Trees are, 桑,栢,桐,楡,香榛 and others, and flying animals are, 烏,雀,鷗,鶉. Running animals are, cats and rats. The sea animals on the bay were 藿,鰒,雜魚. And we reached to 可支魚窟, then there were 7-8 sealions surprised by us. We shot down and captured two of them before jumped into the sea.<BR/><BR/>On the 27th of April, we went back to 江陵 and styaed there. I am presenting 2 pieces of rosewood incense (紫檀香), which are sealed in this letter. In addition, ten more pieces of rosewood incense (紫檀香) , three green bamboo, six seung (升) of red ocher (石間朱), and two skins of sea lions (可支魚). As is the custom, we send the Bibyeonsa (備邊司) a map of the island, two skins of sealions, three green bamboo, six seung (升) of red ocher (石間朱), and twelve pieces of rosewood incense (紫檀香).<BR/><BR/>日本人の方々、いつもの通り、チェックをお願い致します。Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-88678470957426771002007-11-18T11:28:00.000+09:002007-11-18T11:28:00.000+09:00I noticed that in this record they found seven or ...I noticed that in this record they found seven or eight sea lions in a "sea lion cave." I am not sure where the cave is, but there is cave called "Sea Lion Cave" on the west side of the island. However, I do not know if they were referring to that particular cave or to some other cave on the island. Anyway, this is another example of a Korean survey team catching sea lions on Ulleungdo, not Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo).Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.com