tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post3668265391117038437..comments2024-01-26T17:48:29.804+09:00Comments on Dokdo-or-Takeshima?: No Korean Fishermen on Ulleungdo in 1901Gerry Bevershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-77505805249879072672008-07-16T12:29:00.000+09:002008-07-16T12:29:00.000+09:00Gerry,Welcome back!I hope these Korean new comers ...Gerry,<BR/><BR/>Welcome back!<BR/>I hope these Korean new comers will recognise the real problems in the dispute.pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-77977261254814669722008-07-16T12:27:00.000+09:002008-07-16T12:27:00.000+09:00Kaitlin,Why do you think so?Only Korea and China i...Kaitlin,<BR/><BR/>Why do you think so?<BR/><BR/>Only Korea and China insist so but it is based on the reason in their own governemnts - they claimed neighboring country to let their people see outside, not accusing their government. It is a kind of propaganda.pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-41045992868905270752008-07-16T11:25:00.000+09:002008-07-16T11:25:00.000+09:00I am really concerned that Japanese imperialism is...I am really concerned that Japanese imperialism is rising again.Kaitlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07432859711696855217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-78365736999068273072008-05-11T16:47:00.000+09:002008-05-11T16:47:00.000+09:00Thank you, Pacifist and Kaneganese.Yes, I see we b...Thank you, Pacifist and Kaneganese.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I see we broke 230,000, but I think much of that was due to Korean and Japanese sites sending people our way to vote on our survey question. However, these days people may be stopping by because we are pretty much the only site left that seems to be discussing Dokdo-Takeshima. Many Korean sites seem to have stopped saying much about the issues, possible at the request of the Korean government or possible because they have come to realize that Liancourt Rocks was not historically Korean territory. <BR/><BR/>I have a feeling that the Korean government and media finally realized that publicly discussing the history of Dokdo-Takeshima was hurting Korea more than helping her. For example, whenever Korean scholars would present an old map or document that supposedly supported their claim on Dokdo, it often turned out not to be the case, and, sometimes, even turned out to be more evidence supporting the Japanese claim. At best, Korea's claims often turned out to be just wishful thinking.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think it is good that the Korean and Japanese governments have taken the focus off Dokdo-Takeshima, but that should not stop the historians from discussing the issues. Afterall, it is their job. Besides, President Roh Mu-hyun essentially let the genie out of the bottle by making Dokdo-Takeshima such a big issue, so I do not think the debate can be put back into the bottle now.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-30136635682263605612008-05-11T01:34:00.000+09:002008-05-11T01:34:00.000+09:00We've just recorded 230000 hits !!! There are near...We've just recorded 230000 hits !!! There are nearly 300 hits every day constantly.<BR/><BR/>Maybe, we should celebrate Anniversary soon?Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-65760742126960580982008-05-11T00:48:00.000+09:002008-05-11T00:48:00.000+09:00Pacifist, as I've said above. There were two kinds...Pacifist, as I've said above. There were two kinds of Korean residents on Ulleungdo at the turn of the 20th Century.<BR/><BR/>Resident farmers who lived there year around. Some of those were new settlers (farmers) who obviously were having trouble adapting to their new homes. Also some Japanese who tried to live on Ulluengdo found life there and also faced starvation on the island.<BR/><BR/>The others Koreans were transient fishermen who arrived in the spring. They gathered seaweed, harvested abalone, hunted seals and built boats. They most likely left in the fall. These people were much like the Japanese who harvested marine resources along coastal areas.<BR/><BR/>You can see that this agrees with the document you've quoted the Japanese set up a "temporary base" on Ulleungdo to dive for abalone.<BR/><BR/>If the Koreans "got to know" about Dokdo from Japanese it must have happed more than five years before the Japanese annexed the island in 1905. This is because the Japanese Black Dragon Fishing Manual proves Korean cognizance of Liancourt Rocks in 1900.<BR/><BR/>Read this document.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/1901-black-dragon-10.jpg" REL="nofollow">KoreansKnewOfDokdo</A><BR/><BR/>Pacifist, I've asked posters on this forum numerous time and nobody seems to have an answer. What exactly were hundreds of Japanese fishermen doing on Korea's Ulleungdo Island in the early 1900s? You know it was illegal for Japanese to live on Korean land outside of treaty areas. So why don't you explain to us why so many Japanese lived on Ulleungdo as this time?<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't explaining the historical circumstances surrounding Japanese involvement in Korea be an importand part of the Dokdo Takeshima problem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-62984967151969403292008-05-10T23:57:00.000+09:002008-05-10T23:57:00.000+09:00Correction again:the site is:http://sankei.jp.msn....Correction again:<BR/><BR/>the site is:<BR/><BR/>http://sankei.jp.msn.com/feature/takeshima/takeshima01.htmpacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-40213464190845038642008-05-10T23:56:00.000+09:002008-05-10T23:56:00.000+09:00Correction:The site is:https://www.blogger.com/com...Correction:<BR/><BR/>The site is:<BR/>https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26948035&postID=3668265391117038437&page=1pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-1822782550262886572008-05-10T23:54:00.000+09:002008-05-10T23:54:00.000+09:00Steve,You quoated Japanese document but you forgot...Steve,<BR/><BR/>You quoated Japanese document but you forgot to read the rest of the document.<BR/><BR/>It says, "This year fishermen from Amakusa and Oki brought eight boats equipped with diving gear and set up a base at Dodong (道洞). There were also two boats with divers (蜑船) from Shima and a one boat with divers (海士船) from Amakusa, who set up a temporary base at Jeodong (苧洞). All of these fishermen cruised around the island fishing, but compared to last year, the haul of fish was poor; thus, not much profit is expected this year".<BR/><BR/>You know, there were many Japanese deep sea fishermen tried to catch deep sea products while a few Korean fishermen kept collecting seaweeds at sea shore.<BR/><BR/>BTW, there were female Korean seaweeds hunters (or woman divers) at Takeshima/Dokdo in the early 20th century, as the photo in the following site shows. <BR/><BR/>http://sankei.jp.msn.com/feature/takeshima/takeshima01.htm<BR/><BR/>This was the only proof that there were Korean seaweeds hunters (or woamn divers) at Takeshima/Dokdo. <BR/><BR/>But the photo proves that they were brought by Japanese because the men in the photo were Japanese and the photo was taken in June 1934. The 7th man from right is Yoshiyama Takeshi (96 y.o. last year), who was a fisherman from Oki island. <BR/><BR/>He recalled "We hired these women from Jeju-do and a Korean boatman (from Korean peninsula) brought them (to Takeshima/Dokdo). Koreans were made to recognise by Japan that the island was a fishing ground."<BR/><BR/>I don't know why they didn't bring women divers from Ulleungdo - it may have been because there were no such professional woman divers at Ulleungdo. Anyway, the Yoshiyama's testimony supports the theory that Koreans were late comers to Takeshima/Dokdo. They got to know about the island after being hired by Japanese.pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-64721247516515174242008-05-10T23:31:00.000+09:002008-05-10T23:31:00.000+09:00What I'm going to write is almost same as pacifist...What I'm going to write is almost same as pacifist already wrote...<BR/><BR/>Thank you for introducing interesting part of Korean book for us, Gerry.<BR/><BR/>The description that there were no fishermen on Ulleundo around 1902 perfectly matches with the contents with <A HREF="http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-does-it-say-about.html" REL="nofollow">"Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Trade, Document Section: Trade Documents" (外務省通商局編纂 通商彙纂)</A>. It also says that the Korean residents on the island had no ships to go back mainland and boats of Korean fishermen from mainland were too full to load them, so they had to hire Japanese ship.<BR/><BR/>The most interesting part for me was "In spite of suffering this kind of starvation, it is said that the settlers would not fish. Even though the Japanese were gathering abalone and squid from right under their noses, the settlers did not take notice, and if their children tried to imitate the Japanese by trying to fish, they got their calves beaten until they bled in order to stop them from imitating disgusting sailors. ". As I've been telling that Choson dynasty put importance heavily on Agriculture, they ignored fishing because of Confusious. Fishermen were looked down upon by Choson people. They were the lowest of the "良民" class. It was natural for farmer prohibit their kids to imitate "filthy" fishermen in order to protect their family's Honour. <BR/><BR/>"Since there is absolutely no (Korean) transportation between the island and the Korean mainland, Korean residents on the island hire Japanese ships to come to the island, but it is only two or three times a year. Even though about twenty (Korean) ships from Samdo (三島) in Cholla Province (全羅道) come to the island to collect the brown seaweed (wakame) in the winter, they all return to the mainland fully loaded (without passengers). Other than those ships (from mainland), there is no one who owns a ship adquate enough to make the voyage."(外務省通商局編纂 通商彙纂, 1902)<BR/><BR/>Korean fishermen from mainland collected seaweeds which Japanese traders bought a lot from them when they go back to mainland. They were full loaded of seaweeds, so it is illogical to consider those seasonal fishermen who's already travelled long went beyond fertile Ulleundo to Liancourt Rocks 92km far from there for risking their lives. It was economically unrealistic.<BR/><BR/>The only testimony made by old Korean fishermen on Ulleundo was recorded <B>after</B> territorial dispute had occured and it has no evidence to back up.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to see "an April 29, 1902 article in the Hwangseong Sinmun (皇城新聞)"says what exactly.Kaneganesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533339719864245857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-14654238563088673002008-05-10T23:13:00.000+09:002008-05-10T23:13:00.000+09:00Gerry,This is an academic document which matches J...Gerry,<BR/><BR/>This is an academic document which matches Japan's document 通商彙纂 (1902). <BR/>The latter was introduced by Kaneganese here:<BR/>http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-does-it-say-about.html<BR/><BR/>It says, "Their (= Koreans') homes were scattered, and they cultivated the land in earnest, engaging wholly in farming. There are only a few who engaged in fishing" (section 2) and it also says "There are absolutely no Korean fishermen on the island, but many do come each year from Samdo (三島) in Cholla Province (全羅道) to collect the brown seaweed (wakame) which grows thickly on the seashore" (section 7). <BR/><BR/>Fishery in Ulleungdo was mainly engaged by Japanese fishermen. Korean fishermen only collected seaweeds because they didn't have big ships to go ocean fishing.pacifisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14100903035796287895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-78080935820008806702008-05-10T18:53:00.000+09:002008-05-10T18:53:00.000+09:00Steve Barber (Dokdo-Takeshima),You're right. I sho...Steve Barber (Dokdo-Takeshima),<BR/><BR/>You're right. I should not have called you a "goofball," so in the future, I will try to keep my personal opinions of you to myself.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-11713604187352272072008-05-10T17:54:00.000+09:002008-05-10T17:54:00.000+09:00Gerry, it was recorded Koreans where fishing aroun...Gerry, it was recorded Koreans where fishing around the shores of Ulleungdo at least 30 years before the year 1900. They were not just building boats, the Koreans were gathering abalone, seaweed and hunting seals as well. Adams book in 1870 describes Koreans on Ulleungdo quite well.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/adams3.jpg" REL="nofollow">Koreans onUlleungdo</A><BR/><BR/>The British China Pilot (Sea Directory) said the Koreans built boats and collected large quantities of shell fish as well. The would of course be abalone or sea-ears. It states.<BR/><BR/><I>"..During the spring and summer months some Koreans reside on the island, and build junks (Chinese style sailboats) which they take across to the mainland; they also collect and dry large quantities of shell-fish.."</I><BR/><BR/>Lee Gyuwon also recorded Koreans gathering seaweed on the coast of Ulleungdo in 1882. Here it was written.<BR/><BR/><I>I saw a man in a tent and asked who he was, he replied he was from South Cholla province, Heung Yang region Samdo (Geomundo~Port Hamilton) his name was Kim Dae Gun leading 23 workers and they were making boats and gathering seaweed.."</I><BR/><BR/>In the Japanese report on Ulleungdo it was also recorded Koreans come to Ulleungdo from Chollanamdo to gather seaweed as well.<BR/><BR/><I>"...But many come each year from Samdo (三島) in Cholla Province (全羅道) to collect the brown seaweed (wakame) which grows thickly on the seashore. [Samdo (三島) was present-day Keomundo (巨文島).].."</I><BR/><BR/>Gerry, the Koreans like most Japanese were not deep sea fishermen. The were more like marine gatherers who harvested ocean creatures in shallow water in coastal areas. This shore gathering of seaweed and abalone was also recorded on Dokdo Island in the early 20th Century again in the Japanese 1902 report on Ulleungdo.<BR/><BR/>Goofball!!??<BR/><BR/>Gerry, your blog states on the front page:<BR/><BR/>"...All views are welcome, and comments may be made in any language, but personal attacks, foul language, and comments dealing with unrelated issues will be unwelcome and may be deleted. The goal is civil discussion and debate...."<BR/><BR/>Why should we accept your posts as unbiased data when you clearly can't be trusted to abide by such basic social concepts as courtesy and respect to those who post contrary views on this forum? Seriously, what wrong with you Gerry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-26061126373960743252008-05-10T16:09:00.000+09:002008-05-10T16:09:00.000+09:00Steve (Dokdo-Takeshima),The people from the Jolla ...Steve (Dokdo-Takeshima),<BR/><BR/>The people from the Jolla region came to Ulleungdo to build boats and gather seaweed, not to fish.<BR/><BR/>Did you miss the quote from the 1902 <I>Hwangseong Sinmun</I> article that said, "The Koreans are about 3,000 families, but they are all tenant farmers" [한민(韓民)은 대략 3,000구에 이르나 모두 전호농맹(佃戶農氓)이라)]. Therefore, it was more than just assumptions on the part of the author. <BR/><BR/>Steve, you have obviously not read the book because the author does a lot of referencing, and he even includes an index at the back, which is something many of Korea's other "Dokdo" authors neglect to do.<BR/><BR/>Why do you find it funny that we translate and post documents that talk about Japanese being on Ulleungdo? Unlike you and your "no-comment" Web site, we are not trying to hide anything on this blog. Afterall, we even allow goofballs like you to post here.<BR/><BR/>By the way, what I find funny is your criticizing us for not being academic enough when it would take a neutral party just a few minutes of looking at your silly site to realize what a big joke you are.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26948035.post-13481875319558188312008-05-10T15:24:00.000+09:002008-05-10T15:24:00.000+09:00I disagree with many assumptions this author has m...I disagree with many assumptions this author has made, and it seems he bases much of his data on just one or two documents. If we read historical records from a broader base we can get a clearer historical background on all Koreans on Ulleungdo, not just the newbie settlers. <BR/><BR/>The numerous historical documents we have on Korean life on Ulleungdo classifies two different kinds of residents there.<BR/><BR/>First we have a agrarian based population who survived on Ulleungdo Island year round and engaged in farming for their livelihood. These people rarely fished. This article seems to talk more about "settlers" who were probably newcomers to the island that were brought in after Chosun decided to repopulate the island.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-20cent.html" REL="nofollow">20Century</A><BR/><BR/>The second group of Koreans were much the same as the Japanese. These people were fishermen, boat-builders, sealers and gathered seaweed along the shorelines. They voyaged around 550kms each year from Geumundo, Chodo and Namyang on the Korea's South coast. Even decades earlier these transient Cholladamdo people were recorded by Lee Gyuwon. In fact there was a Korean elder who talked of visiting Dokdo to gather seaweed before the Japanese seized the island.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-european-dagelet.html" REL="nofollow">18Century</A><BR/><BR/>Fishing declined in the early 20th Century and both Japanese and Koreans fished less and less at this point. However, reading documents from the decades prior to the decline of Ulleungdo's marine resources we can see many Koreans lived in much the same manner as the Japanese fishermen did. The Korean fishermen were pushed out of the trade by the Japanese who overwhelmed the locals. Other Japanese brought in special diving equipment and could more efficiently harvest the marine resourses.<BR/><BR/>Gerry, what were the Japanese doing fishing on Ulleungdo in the first place? I've gotta say it's pretty humorous watching you try to bolster Japan's claim to Dokdo Island by using documents that repeatedly reference Japan's invasion of Ulleungdo. Reams of Chosun historical data that discuss Ulleungdo almost always include some information about how the Japanese were trespassing on Ulleungdo. Yet on this forum, the Japanese invasion of Chosun's Ulleungdo is treated as peripheral issue. This is a pretty shameful approach to studying/resolving the Dokdo Takeshima issue. Not academic at all, just lobbying....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com